Curse

AndrewSX · Oct 26, 2011, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

You can't really compare then since they are both completely different and used for completely different situations. Tease if you need more energy management, PI if you don't need the e-management but could instead use the KD. Since each one has a different use, you can't really say one is more powerful than the other.

The only problem of Tease is that using the elite as e-management (which isn't bad, don't get me wrong) you're dropping the option of taking some of the most overpowered skills in PvE.

Also, Tease means that the rest of your bar should be both energy intensive (or the normal insp stuff would be enough) and very effective (because, as said, you're dropping the elite dmg/shutdown/utility).

Lanier · Oct 26, 2011, 09:15 PM // 21:15

I'm not saying that tease is a good option for a primary mes, im just saying that you can't compare tease to PI by saying "KD > energy gain".

That said, people are often hesitant to use WW or WD on heroes do the the spammy nature of the skills and the fact that even with power drain, Waste not want not, etc., heroes tend to run out of energy with the WW/WD skills on their bars (hence the creation of the occasionally-seen ER domination bar for eles). An interesting strategy might be to run 2 mesmers together - one with the standard PI or panic bar and one with a tease + WW/WD domination bar. I don't know how well it would work, but it might be worth testing.

Mouse at Large · Oct 27, 2011, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Maybe there is a degree of synergy between Tease and me running earth with Unsteady Ground

Plutoman · Oct 27, 2011, 04:25 PM // 16:25

I always wondered why people never ran a Lyssa's Aura WW/WD bar. Perfect for that.. Though a tease bar's pretty nice, LA is definitive energy. Just musings, however. I doubt I'd use it, heroes are too haphazard with those to truly use them well.

AndrewSX · Oct 27, 2011, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Well, when comes down to use stuff is always matter of having a idiot-proof bar. Cuz heroes are idiots most of times. That's why we don't use FD but mindless e-surge/panic, for example.

Also, about Tease: is still a great energy source, but you must remember that heroes will use it just like PDrain: as rupt. Not as e-management, that's a secondary benefit that you want and you know will be achieved, but you shouldn't trust AI so much (which is why Bip > self ene-gain mes rupts).

The Drunkard · Oct 31, 2011, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

You're judging keystone on it's own - which is fair enough. Where it shines is the stacking of 3-4 keystone mesmers.

Which is why the skill isn't amazing. In order for those mesmers to pump out damage and interrupts, they need crowd control. There are only two viable ways for crowd control on a AoE team- a dedicated tank, or a copy or two of a heavy snare (Deep freeze). In the case of the tank holding agro, constant interrupting is a lot weaker than a quick spike, mainly because death is a permanent form of interrupt. In the case of a heavy snare, it's much more risky as a form of crowd control (as mobs that split from the snare avoid the effects of keystone all-together. However, keystone will shine if the snares are successful, as the interrupts will keep the mob shut down for the damage portion of keystone to be effective. I'm not really sure why you would go that route, as it's much easier for a tank to pull and ball.

DPS is not always better than spikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

The consistent interrupts and very consistent DPS is much more powerful than 3-4 e-surges, as the e-surge has only a single spike skill with the rest of the bar being reactive.

Which is the esurge is such a strong skill- it's conditional damage that has easy to meet requirements, low energy cost, high damage output, and a large range. You can put it on just about any dom bar and it can complement it nicely. You can also echo it with two other mesmers for a ~600 damage spike, and use the rest of your bar for clean-up. Keystone doesn't have that utility; you have to completely devote your bar for signets, or you cripple your damage in-between keystone castings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

A set of keystone mesmers will interrupt and damage without any requirements, and provide consistently high damage without any overlap at all (whereas others cannot stack hexes and interrupt stacking issues).

Keystone needs foes to be within adjacent range to have any effect at all. It requires your bar to be devoted to the skill. Keystone also clashes with any-other interrupt skill in a mesmer's arsenal or skills that punish casting (Panic, PI, Ineptitude, VoR etc) .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

Keystone is almost a niche skill - it's got enough uses that I wouldn't qualify it as that though. It's powerful in it's own right, though. And an echo'd e-surge is a bit much, too, most hero bars won't have that. Try it without the echo and compare.

The damage isn't amazing with one hero, mainly because heroes in general have awful AI. They can't even use keystone because they prefer to focus on the signet's effects instead of keystone. However, because Esurge is nice AoE damage, people like to take it with three heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

Just curious - why does Tease keep getting overlooked. I've been reasonably happy running it on a mes hero.

Tease is a good skill but it's been overshadowed by other elites, plus with the buff to Spirit siphon there's really no need for e-management when going rit primary or secondary

Plutoman · Oct 31, 2011, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Just a couple things - a snare after an EVAS is perfect for keystone.

You've basically said why it's a niche skill, and not a widely used skill. It can be very powerful, but it's not that powerful when just used without planning. Sometimes we can't use the tank n' spank technique, but we can ball them with certain skills. Adjacent range isn't necessarily bad, but it isn't as good as others. It also can't be used on heroes with micro (it can with micro, however) because of symbolic celerity not being kept up. You can maneuver skills to make it work, but that's the biggest failure right there.

Anyways, generally you are completely correct. Keystone isn't as good as e-surge. It does have certain advantages, though, that make it a viable skill still, though. The non-reactive damage is rather nice for human teams who can ball and spike with keystone, and other such instances.

I'm a big used of those mesmer skills, anyways - look at my dillway thread. I run domination/illusion split mesmers for my damage. I'm quite aware of the power they put out. :P

ele kid · Oct 31, 2011, 09:43 PM // 21:43

SS>Panic anytime, ineptitude #1

superraptors · Nov 01, 2011, 02:16 AM // 02:16

inpetitude

psychic instability

e surge

shared burden